Russian opposition politician Kara-Murza: 'Putin must lose in Ukraine' 

WASHINGTON — 

Russian absorption person and writer Vladimir Kara-Murza was released from a Russian situation connected August 1 arsenic portion of a wide-ranging speech of prisoners betwixt Russia and respective Western countries. He had been jailed successful April 2022 connected charges of treason for criticizing Russia's warfare successful Ukraine. He was astir fatally poisoned twice, successful 2015 and 2017.

Since his release, Kara-Murza has been actively progressive successful the Russian opposition’s diplomatic efforts, gathering with the U.S. and French presidents and the German chancellor. During a caller sojourn to Washington, helium sat down for interviews with Voice of America journalists. Speaking to VOA’s Ukrainian Service, helium discussed the docket that the Russian absorption is promoting successful the West.

The pursuing interrogation has been edited for brevity and clarity.

VOA: After your release, you met with [U.S.] President [Joe] Biden, [French] President [Emmanuel] Macron and [German] Chancellor [Olaf] Scholz. What was your main connection to them astir argumentation toward Russia?

Vladimir Kara-Murza, Russian absorption politician: There are 2 main messages. The archetypal connection is that [Russian President] Vladimir Putin indispensable suffer the warfare successful Ukraine, due to the fact that if helium does win, that means that successful a twelvemonth oregon a twelvemonth and a half, we volition beryllium talking astir different warfare oregon different Russian invasion, due to the fact that this is what this antheral does.

The 2nd connection is that the antiauthoritarian nations of the escaped satellite indispensable person a strategy. We cognize from the past mates of centuries of Russian past that failed wars of aggression ever pb to governmental changes astatine home. Once Putin is defeated successful Ukraine, determination indispensable beryllium a prepared strategy for reintegrating a new, changed, post-Putin antiauthoritarian Russia backmost into Europe, backmost into the civilized world, and backmost into what we telephone the planetary rules-based order.

VOA: If Putin loses power, however tin democratization perchance happen? Someone from his interior ellipse would astir apt drawback power.

Kara-Murza: I anticipation helium doesn't dice successful bureau and that's however it ends. I'm a Christian, and I cognize that everybody gets a proceedings up there, and truthful volition he. But I truly privation that antheral to get a proceedings successful this life, too.

On the question of change, this is simply a personalistic dictatorship. It is not an ideological dictatorship similar successful Soviet times, with the corporate Politburo, erstwhile you could regenerate the idiosyncratic astatine the apical without replacing the regime. This strategy is going to illness precise quickly, arsenic we saw successful 1953 aft [Josef] Stalin's death.

VOA: But [Nikita] Khrushchev, who replaced Stalin, was from his interior circle; helium wasn't an outsider.

Kara-Murza: Even if the adjacent person comes from the aforesaid circle, they ever basal their regularisation connected a implicit denial of everything that happened before. Khrushchev was 1 of Stalin's closest entourage. He was the 1 who released millions of radical from the gulag and engaged successful a precise incomplete, precise imperfect but nevertheless de-Stalinization process that we had successful the precocious 1950s, aboriginal 1960s — the alleged “Thaw.”

VOA: What benignant of preparations should beryllium made? How could antiauthoritarian forces prehend power?

Kara-Murza: The home facet concerns reflection and accountability, which I telephone a truth-and-reconciliation process. That is indispensable for immoderate nine that has undergone the trauma of totalitarian rule. All the radical who are liable for the crimes against Russian citizens, similar the assassination of Boris Nemtsov, the assassination of Alexei Navalny and the persecution of hundreds and hundreds of governmental prisoners, person to beryllium brought to justice. All the archives and the documents of each the crimes committed indispensable beryllium made public.

VOA: What astir confronting the Russian imperialist mentality? Should Russia besides face each the crimes it has committed toward different radical passim its history?

Kara-Murza: It is portion of the totalitarian past, due to the fact that for years and years, for decades, the authorities successful the Kremlin has been committing crimes against our radical successful Russia and against different countries, different radical and different nations. Look astatine the aggression and the wars this authorities has conducted against the Chechens, against the Georgians, against Ukraine — let's not forget, starting successful 2014. Then, successful Syria, of course, let's not hide [Sergei] Shoigu, [Putin’s] defence minister, boasted astir caller armaments they had tested — tested! — connected people, connected civilians successful residential areas.

VOA: I privation to code your main statement astir integrating Russia into the West aft democratization and liberalization. The main statement against this would beryllium that the West already tried that successful the 1990s. Russia was portion of the G8. NATO and the EU engaged with Russia. It received assistance. However, arsenic Russia became richer, it became much aggressive. The much it became integrated with the West, the much businesslike its malicious activities against the West became.

Kara-Murza: Here is wherever I fundamentally disagree, due to the fact that the full occupation is that the West did not bash that successful the 1990s. Yes, determination were immoderate symbolic steps, similar the G8, which is conscionable a acme meeting. But, dissimilar different countries of the erstwhile Warsaw Pact, Russia successful the 1990s was ne'er offered a imaginable of what I would telephone first-tier European oregon Atlantic integration with tangible benefits similar escaped trade, visa-free question and communal information guarantees.

VOA: But it requires time. Ukraine inactive hasn't been offered NATO rank ...

Kara-Murza: But the occupation is that these windows of accidental are, by definition, abbreviated and brief. They past a fewer months astatine best, and the West mislaid that model of accidental successful Russia successful the aboriginal 1990s. We cannot let that to hap again.

In 1943, arsenic WWII was ongoing, the U.S. authorities developed the Morgenthau Plan for postwar Germany. It was astir dismembering, de-industrializing, humiliating and fundamentally destroying Germany arsenic a functioning state. Given the horrors committed astatine the clip of the war, it was emotionally precise understandable. However, leaders of Western-allied nations realized that they could not basal semipermanent strategical argumentation connected emotion. So, the Morgenthau Plan was abandoned successful favour of the Marshall Plan, which was the nonstop opposite: to rebuild and reconstruct Germany aft the war, to marque it a palmy marketplace system and a functioning wide democracy.

VOA: Should this hap earlier oregon aft Russia pays reparations for the demolition of Ukraine?

Kara-Murza: It should beryllium simultaneous. The lone mode we tin guarantee semipermanent peace, stability, information and ideology connected the European continent is with a antiauthoritarian Russia. It's not going to hap immoderate different way.